On the frontlines: A Wknd interview with legendary journalist Bob Woodward
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What does it feel like, to champion the causes of truth and transparency for 50 years, and then see headlines turn into shadowy products of AI? To then see those headlines alter the narrative, until there is no clarity, only clamour?
What is it like to be navigating an election in which the two choices are a Donald Trump aiming to turn the clock back with vigour, and a sitting Vice-President, a woman of colour, struggling to make a country see past its fear of the unfamiliar?
How does a two-time-Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist such as Bob Woodward, 81, reconcile taking down Nixon with living in a revitalised Trump’s America? (Woodward is best-known, of course, for breaking the story of the Watergate scandal with Carl Bernstein. Click here for a brief note on that.)
He does it, with a lot of righteous anger.
Woodward has written 23 books in his 52-year career. Most of them have been on Presidents (there have been 10 in his 50 years). Most have focused on the inner workings of the US government. Four have been on Donald Trump.
There were the books that turned into a trilogy: Fear (2018), Rage (2020) and Peril (2021). Then came The Trump Tapes (2022).
“In the last year of his presidency, I spoke to Trump for nine hours and all the interviews were recorded with his permission. If you listen to that, you will see who Donald Trump is…,” Woodward says.
He spoke to HT two days before Trump became America’s President-Elect.
Woodward discussed his new book, War, which deals largely with the Biden presidency and the outgoing US government’s handling of the wars in Ukraine and Gaza. He spoke about Kamala Harris. But more than anything else, he spoke about Trump.
He is not only unsuitable for the presidency but unfit to lead the country, Woodward said.
“Trump doesn’t care,” he added.
Excerpts from an interview.
* What has been your impression of the two candidates America had to choose from?
I’ve gathered insight from people closest to Trump, individuals dedicated to defending this country. The former chief of staff, General John Kelly, a four-star Marine officer who ran the White House for Trump said it’s “pointless to try to convince him of anything.”
He even referred to the White House under Trump as “crazy town.”
Former defense secretary James Mattis stated Trump is “unfit to be President.” He says one of the problems with Trump is that he doesn’t try to unite the country, he tries to divide it.
And General Mark Milley, former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, whom Trump appointed in 2019, described him as “the most dangerous person for the Presidency” and “a fascist to the core.”
One of the things I discovered while I spent years as a reporter on Trump: he is driven by instinct, he doesn’t want advice, he doesn’t believe in democracy or the Constitution. He doesn’t even believe in truth.
In the last year of his presidency, I interviewed him about how he handled Covid-19. It could not have been more irresponsible. He could have saved thousands of lives just by having a plan and taking care to protect the people. He just said: Don’t worry, it’ll go away.
Harris, the Vice-President, has been to Presidency school. She has a good team. I describe in my book how she goes behind the scenes in a meeting with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, about the conditions in Gaza. She tells Netanyahu he has to do something, and then goes out publicly and says the conditions in Gaza are unconscionable. “I will not be silent,” she says. Very, very strong.
* As you indicate in your book, there’s been a shift in how America views Israel as an ally. Is it fair to say that the approach going forward will be different from Biden’s?
The US-Israel relationship is very complicated, but what’s important is the contrast (between Biden/Harris and) Trump. Trump doesn’t care. He only does what he wants. He doesn’t listen to advice. He doesn’t deal with facts.
Kamala Harris does. She has a national security advisor named Phil Gordon, who is one of the most respected, experienced people in the US government, on foreign affairs…
Harris has got some staff, people who know what they’re talking about. She is a listener.
* Trump says he could resolve the Russia-Ukraine standoff...
Well, look… this is not something you’re going to solve right away.
The national security adviser to President Biden said if Trump became President, he would just wave Putin in to Kyiv. Just go ahead and take it. Why? Because Trump worships autocrats. People like Putin. He always says nice things about Putin.
Now, let’s be historic about this. Who is Putin? He’s the Adolf Hitler of our century. The attack on Ukraine is one of the most savage attempts at territorial conquest. And Putin thinks: “Oh, Ukraine doesn’t exist.” Of course it exists. But he wants it not to exist, wants it to be part of Russia... What’s going on there is what Hitler did in the last century.
* Given how polarised America has become, do you think journalists need to redefine their work to ensure its impact?
I’ve been lucky. I’ve been able to do this for over 50 years …
I spoke to Trump for nine hours in the last year of his presidency, and all the interviews were recorded with his permission. If you listen to that, you will see who Donald Trump is…
Here again I say I have had the luxury of time. I’ve known some of these people for decades, and (with time) you can get a full portrait.
I make no pretext of knowing everything, I don’t. I always am humbled by what I don’t know.
The rule is I will only quote somebody or explain what happened if the source is first-hand, was there, or there are documents or notes to support it. And it’s possible to do that in a court of law in the United States. You can take the witness stand under oath and say: I heard this. I saw this. I was there.
